Seriously clueless

India, private equity and more ...

Tuesday, April 11, 2006

Level playing fields

I've avoided writing about political issues here, but cant resist expressing my views on the suggestion to increase caste-based reservation in higher education. Frankly, it doesnt matter whether the basis is caste or something else. Like several others, I strongly oppose the very notion of anything other than merit being the admission criteria. In the spirit of full disclosure, I fall into what's called 'general category' and made it through assorted entrance tests without any benefit from reservation (though, a generous dose of luck may have played some role)!

Here's a quote that I heard at my earlier job - to get somewhere (in life), you need to either 'know something' or 'know someone'. Thanks to 40+ years of license raj, the 'knowing someone' angle has been particularly relevant in the Indian context. Coming from a typical middle-class family, the disadvantages of not 'knowing someone' become apparent fairly early. Several activities - getting school admission, driver's license, job, housing, even movie tickets - seemed a lot easier for others who 'knew someone'. Of course, one could always get to 'know someone' fairly quickly and really well by paying bribes, but a combination of ethics and affordability limited the use of this route.

A few months past my fifteenth birthday, my parents generously gifted me my first set of IIT JEE preparation material and not-so-gently suggested that I start working through the same. Then, I didnt fully realise the wisdom of their suggestion, but like any dutiful son, did as they prodded. Somewhere along the process, even I realized something very curious about this whole IIT-thing. This was the first case where 'knowing someone' didnt matter. It only mattered whether I 'know something'. At first, I couldnt even believe it. Here is one place where I didnt have any disadvantage over my schoolmates (even the ones whose dads were IAS officers, politicians, wealthy businessmen or could otherwise afford to pay capitation-fees). In retrospect, it was one of the few truly level-playing-fields I encountered. All I had to do was to use the brains I had inherited and work really hard. I still may not succeed, but at least, it wont be due to any 'extraneous' factors. This very notion of a pure 'meritocracy' was (and still is) quite liberating. Over time, a whole bunch of people (including Silicon Valley among others) figured this out, and IITs are what they are for this reason.

I realize that my words about 'meritocracy' and 'level playing fields' are meaningless to most of the Indian-poor. For them, the world is fairly 'unlevel', starting right from access to primary education. While the middle class by-and-large has reasonable and equal access to the IITs and IIMs, the same is not true of the poor. Similarly, large parts of our education system remain 'unlevel' even for the middle class (think of all the capitation-fee colleges). These are clearly difficult and critical problems that the government (and all of us) need to address.

But, let's not mix these up with what the government is trying to do right now. Instead of spending their time on areas where equal opportunities are not available to all, the government is instead trying to f*&k up one of the few level-playing-fields that actually exist. To me, this is ridiculous and retrograde.


At 7:56 AM, Blogger Rockus said...

Absolutely True...
Government thinks only of the vote banks and this may lead to a horrible fate for our nation in the long run...

At 8:48 AM, Blogger Natti said...

Very true Anand. Students, especially those who belong to the 'forward community' as they are called suffer the most. But somehow thse folks end up fighting through all this and coming out successful.
On your mention of a level playing field, true IIT was one of the few. Guess that is not the story anymore.
Looks like you are really pissed off with this..... Very strong language i see for the first time on your blog..

At 11:25 AM, Anonymous Pravesh said...


I would like to add to your post that whatever government is planning here is to essentially make that "level playing field".
Though, I totally agree that reservations based on caste is totally ridiculous and reserving seats in IITs and IIMs would make no differnce to the poor people, as eventually, only those who can afford to get coaching will enter, and the whole purpose would be defeated.
Let me tell you my story. I come from a small town Raipur and I got through JEE in "general" category with a decent rank (lucky I was), but I saw many of my deserving friends who actually belong to villages not even knowing what is IITs going to local colleges and then I saw people from several places (for e.g Kota ) who are only there because of coaching and are no match to my deserving friends. Is this the level playing field you are talking about? I dont think so. So in short, reservation is already there, for those who can afford to get expensive coaching and undeserving people are entering IITs already in a big number. I don't know if there is any difference if now there is a new criteria for the reservation.

At 1:14 PM, Blogger Natti said...

I will disagree with you on that. The government should take initiative to provide that education/coaching to the deserving candidates from the villages you talk about. If they are taking steps to take IT to villages, they sure can do this. The system of reservation is like a disease. We will find it very difficult to remove the system once it is in place.
Looking at the other side of the coin. I was not among those who cracked the JEE. But when I went got into a local engineering college through merit, I saw the disadvantages of the reservation system affecting my chances of getting into some good institutions. At the same time, I also saw a lot of students who used their caste certificate to enter the college but never managed to perform well. Some of them get into the college merely to postfix the degree to their name so that they can collect more dowry. Both systems have their own advantages and disadvantages. But introducing the system of reservation will cause a disease that will not find a cure.
I could rant on but let me not take up too much of Anand's space

At 1:38 PM, Blogger santosh said...

We all know that this 'reservation thing' is pure political gimmick. On a race to show who the bigger idiot is, our politicians can fall to such low levels. Rahul Bajaj warned Sharad Yadav on Aak Tak recently that the so-called General Category be divided as they are currently. If they all come together and put a united front like the other sections and put one voice, then the entire political class would have to sit up and take-note of them. Perhaps, they'd have to increase 'reservation' for the 'general category' then.

At 2:13 PM, Blogger santosh said...

Rahul Bajaj's conversation was in hindi and I think his message got lost somewhere when I translated to english.

Here it goes...the political class prey that the so-called General Category be divided as they are currently. If they all come together and put a united front like the other sections and with one voice, then you (political class) would have to sit up and take-note of them. Perhaps, you'd have to increase 'reservation' for the 'general category' then.

At 3:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

think there is no right or wrong answer here. This needs serious deliberation, and a scientific study on how to lift historically disadvantaged sections. So I will not argue for "for" or "against".
I see most of the comments here "self-serving". Let's look at it objectively.
Anand said - his parents gifted him with a packet of IIT-JEE material when he was 15. This shows that Anand's parents were educated enough to know that their son should go to IIT.
But take my instance. My parents hadn't even heard of IIT, let alone buying me an IIT-JEE preparation course. So I am historically disadvantaged. Because my parents were not educated enough to know about IITs or IIMs. (It was another matter that I bought one for myself and wrote the IIT entrance. I didn't get through, maybe I didn't study hard enough. But it could also maybe that there was none at home to guide me through that important phase.)
What I want to say is there are several historical reasons that would play here and not just meritocracy. Because it's natural that a majority of advantaged sections are meritocratic, becasue they get the right guidance, they get the right support.
Let's not rubbish this as another political ploy. We need to find a solution to uplift those suppressed sections. We need to study this issue seriously.
End of the day, how many VCs are there from the historically disadvantaged sections?
I bet not even one.

At 5:57 PM, Blogger Vikash Mantri said...

My view: Reservation sucks merit is the only way out. CRAP IN CRAP OUT ( CICO pronounced as Sick-O).

However, the question of affordability needs to be answered. Narayan Murthy could not afford IIT. And also APJ Kalam could not have selling newspapers. to improve the system Scholarships and grants should be made transparent.

For all proponents of "level playing field" - "Life is not fair" so get it straight. I havent heard you complaining about the children born in Somalia dying of malnutrition and how life has been unfair to them.

Only option some will have to try harder. Call it luck, God-will, fate whatever. Merit RULZ.

At 7:23 PM, Blogger ungal cram said...


So you want a "meritocracy" in India? A few questions:

1: Some 3 lakh students appear for IIT-JEE and only some 5,000 make it. You are left with a scenario where 2,95,000 people have to attend some other college (mostly private) and combat with each other for jobs in the Indian market. Who gives a damn whether the reservations are 30 per cent or 100 per cent in Govt institutes? The vast majority of school-leavers have to fend for themselves either way.

2: Why can't we have more IITs/IIMs, etc? If we have 100 such institutes, a greater number of students will get a chance at top quality education (even with 50 per cent reservation). Now that's the real level playing field -- not forcing 3 lakh students to compete for 5,000 seats. Rahul Bajaj asked the important question last night on Times Now: Where is the faculty? Once we are ready to accept the fact that we badly need more institutions, then we will start exploring options. Till then we are going to continue with idle chat about "merit".

3: What the f*** is industry doing about it? Pompous farts like Narayana Murthy are ready to criticise the Government but do nothing to change the educational situation. Why can't these b*****ds start educational institutions? After all, they stand to gain the most. They need people; why don't they invest in an area that can produce people of potential?

4: Where are all the great IIT brains? Not in India. Even people like Anand did not think about working in India initially; in fact no IITian is trained to think of giving back to India (that realization dawns only after a decade or so in the US). Even Anand is now back home only because India's a happening place and his company thinks it can make some good money here. All those who talk of merit and meritocracy forget that the country or the economy do not benefit from IITs that spend millions on students who are only going to serve some MNC abroad.

Phew! Sorry for taking up so much space but this is an issue that I feel very strongly about.

At 5:20 AM, Blogger RYK said...

I agree with Ungal Cram above. The institutes need to raise capcity by adding more branches and more seats. Then there will be room for everyone, reservations or not.

Unfortunately we in India have still not learnt how to create abundance, instead we are only good at fighting with each other over meagre portions.

At 4:14 PM, Blogger ungal cram said...

Hi ryk

The top quality education scenario is a lot like the job scenario of 20 or 30 years ago. Too many fighting for too few.

With the IT and outsourcing boom, and increased MNC presence, millions of new jobs have been created, and unemployment has been reduced to that extent. Of course a lot more needs to be done.

India should aim for an abundance (sorely lacking in many other areas, like sports facilities). That's the way forward. And do it in all spheres. After all, not everyone wants to get into IIT.

At 11:13 PM, Blogger Krishna said...

Interesting detour from usual investing related comments from Anand. Reading some of the comments on the blog, I am almost compelled to write. If you look at the entire value chain, in order to get into IITs, one needs to do three things: 1) be aware of IITs, call it “Awareness” step, 2) prepare for JEE, call it “Preparation” step, and 3) perform well in JEE to get admission, call it “Admission” step. Anand talks about “Admission” step for IITs being one of few true level playing fields in India. One can’t agree more. Now, people argue quite passionately that in order to compensate for lack of “Awareness” or “Preparation”, its not just fine but even desirable to have reservations at “Admissions” step! In my mind, truly a height of illogical thinking. Why? Because by having reservations at “Admissions” stage, you have not only tossed meritocracy out of the window, but also have made no impact at “Awareness” step. Those who were not aware do not benefit from reservations. Only those who were either not deserving enough or did not prepare enough (or were plain lazy) at the expense of deserving candidates would benefit from it. Nothing to do with disadvantaged society or historical imparity nonsense. Solutions based on historical imparity arguments create another class while attempting to remove an existing class, sort of pass the buck! Unfair at minimum, ridiculous at best. So, what is really a logical answer to reservation issue? Well, if the problem lies with “Awareness” and “Preparation” steps, let’s fix these two steps, rather than messing with “Admissions”.

Let’s examine some of the arguments put forward by other esteemed readers…Pravesh has an interesting point about an implicit reservation based on ability to spend for “Preparation” step. Again, perhaps government, NGOs and some of the top coaching institutes should attempt to provide access to high quality “Preparation” at subsidized rates or for free. If I am not mistaken, in 80s Agrawal Classes, the best coaching for JEE at that time, used to allow only those who passed its own exam or had certain cut-off percentage in boards and used to give materials at subsidized rates, if not free. Why is government, NGOs or coaching institutes not doing something similar?
“Awareness” is indeed a problem, albeit far less than what it was when I went through the system in 80s. In fact, if I had not seen IIT-JEE notice on my school notice board during my 12th UP Board exams, I would have perhaps never seen the life I did. Nobody from my town had ever entered the famed classrooms of IITs, until I did (not just that, among other things, having authored over half a dozen technical papers, I got honored as the Best Student of the entire institute). So, the question for all of us is to find a way to increase “Awareness” where the root of the problem lies. On the question of “Preparation” I must also mention a story of son of a chaat vendor who used to sit every night and study under the street lamp across our house after helping his father sell chaat during the day. To everybody’s surprise if I could get through JEE (subsequently get to Harvard, then the most coveted management consulting firm, and get offers from Venture Capital firm etc) and son of an illiterate chaat vendor could become a doctor, many more, who truly desire, work hard perhaps can too. In fact, they do. Over the last two decades I have come across many stories like mine and that of the poor kid who became a doctor. We are obviously not done yet, much more to come in coming years! Coming back to the question of “Awareness”, yes, it is indeed a problem and needs to be dealt with seriously. I disagree with the comments of Anonymous…I repeat that reservation at “Admissions” step is the wrong answer for the reasons outlined above (lack of Awareness cannot be fixed at Admissions step). To Ungal Cram’s comment on why not to have 100 IITs etc, well, let’s think about it, can there truly be 100 institutions of same caliber ever, anywhere in the world in any space, let alone education? Of course, not. There will always be a gradation in the quality of students, faculty, facilities and therefore, the output of those institutions. Even if you had 100 IITs, people will still talk of only the top few which will have fierce competition. Take your own IIMs as an example. IIM-A has a yield of 95% (95% of students offered admission at IIM-A accept the offer) whereas IIM-K has about 40%. What does that tell you? Its not about just brand IITor IIM. Sure it matters. It matters more now because there such few IITs and IIMs. When you have many, then they won’t carry much of brand value. So, the answer is not to increase the number of IITs to 100 or such ridiculous number, but to increase the quality of other institutes. There is only one Harvard, MIT or Princeton. Think about it. There are 7 or 8 campuses in the University of California system, yet only two campuses have enviable position in the most sought after campuses list (Berkeley and Los Angeles). The second point Ungal makes about brain drain is also a bit hard to understand. Well, are you assuming that students going through reservations will be less likely to migrate to the US or saying that going to IITs is an automatic ticket to migration therefore everybody should have an equal access (or if competence doesn’t allow then through reservations)? In either case, since migration (through higher education route is merit based system) it won’t allow undeserving students to rise much higher. As far as I could tell, none of the top universities are dying to admit undeserving IIT students, whereas they trip over each other to provide full financial assistance to deserving students, IIT graduates or otherwise.

If you made it this far, I thank you for your patience and would welcome any comments or further discussion on any of the points I raised. I did not intend to offend anyone or come across overly harsh, but I do believe that if we want to build a great nation of great people, we should be willing to debate issues of immense importance seriously and rigorously. Warm regards.

At 5:12 PM, Blogger ungal cram said...

Hi Krishna

Thanks for your take.

You say that we cannot have 100 IITs or IIMs. In the same breath you say that even in the US there is only one Princeton, on Harvard, one Yale, etc.

That's precisely what I am driving at.

The US has so many universities, such a variety of choices, of varying calibre no doubt but of high calibre compared to India. Since they have a great many colleges, they can even think in terms of blacks-only or women-only universities. No one gets worked up over such issues. And another point: they have been paying attention to university education for decades.

What have we achieved? Most universities here are third-rate. Many colleges don't have adequate faculty, amenities. Few institutes aspire to achieve any decent standard. This is the real tragedy, not 22 per cent or 50 per cent reservation. No one seems to be interested in addressing the actual problem. As a result, whenever some self-serving politician plays the reservation card to gain more votes, there is a huge brouhaha. Would the upper castes crib about affirmative action if they had enough choices? No way.

The divide between IIT and any other college is so great that it becomes a do-or-be-doomed issue for the student. Unless you bridge that, how are you going to serve the greatest good of the greatest number?

This is my main grouse. That the ratio of good academic institutions to the number of students passing out every year is too skewed.

We have a chronic shortage of doctors. Why can't we increase the medical colleges per capita in our country? Why can't we build more hospitals?

There are at least 50 major business families in this country. Why can't each of them start a medical college or professional education institute? Of course there are exceptions (like Bajaj, the Birlas), but more needs to be done.

The Birla-run BITS has traditionally been an alternative destination for many Chennai students who couldn't make it to IIT. Ten of my classmates went to BITS. All of them are doing well. If only we had more BITS-like colleges, the craze for IIT would subside to a large extent. I am looking at the larger picture here.

As regards my comment about IITians, it was not entirely related to the issue, just an aside. The majority of students who pass out of IIT are of little use to the country; unless you change that, why should the taxpayer worry about whether reservation is 22 per cent or 100 per cent.

What have these guys done for India? How many of them stay back, start companies here, or do research here? Brain drain happens in other colleges as well, but the percentage is extremely high in IIT. And you know very well that IIT-ians get the best quality education with a great subsidy component. And what does the country get in return? Nothing. Just sanctimonious crap from IIT-ians about reservation and merit. That's what riles me.

Thanks for your time and patience.

At 10:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Full disclosure = IIT-M & IIM-A grad, "General Category"

pandering to the voter base or not, I think that the entire argument that affirmative action is justified but at the primary level and not at IITs/IIMs smacks of hypocricy.

Rad, I and a number of other folks had a lot going for us in terms of parental support, peer network, higher level of awareness and training facilities. As Parvesh and Anon1 pointed out, while JEE/CAT may represent a "level playing field" to us, it is not really a "level playing field" for folks without the monetary support, role models in their community to look upto or an environment where awareness of such opportunities exist.

While I would be interested in seeing hte background analysis in terms of projected socialogical impact that led to the 49.9% number, I believe that affirmative action is needed at IITs and IIMs. Affirmative action at the primary level is not mutually exclusive to IITs/IIMs and should be pursued as well.

- Anon2

At 4:07 AM, Blogger Kapil said...

(disclosure: general merit engineering in a decent college, non-IIT, non-IIM .. tried IIT-JEE but didnt make it through ;-)

Great blog post, Anand. I agree completely. Let good things be, and don't kill the golden goose!

Nice analysis, Krishna. If the problem is with awareness and prep, lets have free training for all (!)

Ungal Cram, on your response to Krishna's analysis, I have to say that you're making the same mistake again: if the problem is that other institutes are not good enough, why mess with the IITs instead of fixing the other schools that are bad? Why not tackle the source of the problem by setting proper (read consistent, enforceable.. and enforced!) standards for higher education to weed out bad colleges, and invite the private sector to step up where its a matter of capacity.

I would add that in IMHO, an IIT/IIM education (or even higher education in general) is not an entitlement - it has to be earned, and what better than on the basis of merit and intellectual capacity.

Anon#1, classes and correspondence courses can unlock your potential, but one cannot get into IIT/IIM simply because someone "took a course" or because there was someone at home to tutor you .. so stop feeling sorry for yourself and whining about being "historically disadvantaged" (what a hoot!) and just accept the fact you didnt get in, period. (it does not mean you are stupid -- lots of non-IITians are very smart and successful people, you might well be one of them).

I've also seen exactly what natti described in terms of people manipulating the quota rules or being just uncompletely unfit for the level of education they were they were given admission to: so they got into the college, but couldn't get out (!) because they were just not intellectually prepared for the classes they were taking. So what should we do then, have reservations and quotas for passing exams too?! (god forbid!) I would argue that by giving admission to people who are not academically ready/prepared for the "admission", you are being unfair to them.

This is a genie that cant be put back into the bottle (consider the after effects of Mandal, which persisted for many years after that little exercise in politics).

At 4:29 PM, Anonymous cram said...

Hi Kapil

Thanks for your take too.

I see we agree with at least one thing: the need for more quality institutes.

My point is that the whole affair is being given an unnecessarily great deal of publicity -- exactly what the politicians want -- when the focus ought to be on increasing the number of quality institutions.

Why is no one talking about that, I wonder? Instead of focusing on an event, why don't we pay attention to the process?

The Government is not bothered because it's hard work (announcing reservations is so much easier), while the private sector (read industry) doesn't give a damn.

At 11:49 PM, Blogger Grandebelf said...

Hi Anand,

Its not about the money alone. I guess the inequality is in terms of opporutnities we have had in past generations. As tam brams et al over generations we have been reading/learning gained knowledge. The SC/STs have not had that opportunity. They have been treated as touchables. Look at it from that point of view, while i also dont agree with the reservation but find it misleading that people only look at the fee/money point of view. Imagine for generations if we had not got educated and were suddenly put in to the pool with people whose forefathers have been learning for generations. Your view is a little short sighted.

At 6:11 PM, Anonymous Anon X said...

Dude, saw you on TV. You look fatter and older compared to the photo on the site!!

At 2:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon zz:

Anand, one thing is clear: people in India (including your readers)seem more interested in education / politics than in investing :-)

Personal disclosure, of another kind: I know Anand, so I can vouch for the fact that he came back to India as an MBA student rather than as an investor, and opted to stay on and work in India rather than go abroad - so Ungal Cram, your comments on him were off-base. And he's too nice a guy to defend himself against that attack :-)

At 11:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My main contention is on the false assumption of existence of a holier "level playing field".Look around doesnt exist anywhere-Even in the case of "chacha-bhatijavaad"....the level playing field never exists!If I know a level-up officer than you do, sorry dude, you ve lost.
Just by passing one or two exams the world is open to a few and restricted to a lot of others.And the "upper echelons" falsely acquire a "holier than thou" attitude to "think about them"/ Yes, the system is fucked up but what can YOU as a person do about it, maybe your next post should be that!

At 11:48 AM, Blogger Passion said...

Reservations are legislative response to historical social and economic injustices.
Should we shelve reservations if 80% of the marriages are inter-religious and inter-caste?

At 2:44 PM, Anonymous kristen said...

Awesome site dude!!! You totally rock!!

I just wanted to share this bit if info with you…it’s about this site called globester. Very nice site for low cost airfares!! And it works!!! Most of these sites are available a dime a dozen, but this really stands out..a must see and must use..has my full recommendation!
The link is…

My next trip is to Scotland..will keep yawl posted on the fares that I received, when I get around to planning it..the last trip to Moscow, saved me tons of moolah!!
Do check it out!!


At 12:56 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ungal cram ...! It is interesting that you curse the low standards of the universities in India and use abusive language against people like NRM who have given more to the society than taken anything from it and believe in freely expressing their views about the path to be taken without reservation for a better education system, i.e. not by supporting the so called suppressed people of the Indian society instead help them learn to support themselves by raising their standards. Reservation system would only further lower their standards/quality and render them useless for a FAIR! competition.

I believe in democracy and democracy to the fullest extent, if I have a better job offer/higher education option from somewhere regardless it being from a place across the sea I would leave and I don't think anybody wouldn't and I don't belive even the people who so called would be uplifted taking the advantage of the reservation system wouldn't leave given a chance so reservation system for making people stay in India their home land and serve the nation is utter bullshit!

The ultimate motive of every being is to have a better life (life style) that can be only supported money, Institutes like IIT and IIM ensure a good career and money just follows but this assurance is only till these institutes maintain their quality of education by churning out the best of the talents and not providing degrees to people who deserve it based on non-merit reservation system. Please tell me anything else that the people who get through the reservation system think of having if not what I mentioned above.

Reservation System is a back door to these institutes and the cost of it is paid by the students who are left out and deprived of a seat due to it. How much of a success was the 27% reservation and on what basis it is being increased to 50%? Is it because of it failure of success?

Reservation system is a political propaganda! If you need to have a reservation system why not have it only till schooling level and leave the professional education away from it. Why not keep the reservation based on economic background instead of caste, India is country with lots of poor people who need the support and assistance of this kind.

After all nobody wants to be operated by a Doctor or wants to be represented by a lawyer who has passed out with the help of reservation based on caste.


At 11:07 AM, Anonymous wow power leveling said...

Why was there no follow on bankruptcy then? The bailout of AIG FP went to (wow power leveling) hedge funds that bound credit swaps on Lehman failing or others betting on rating (wow power leveling) declines. AIG has drained over 100 billion from the government. Which had to go to (wow power leveling) those who bet on failures and downgrades. Many of whom (power leveling)were hedge funds. I-banks that had offsetting swaps needed the money from the AIG bailout or they would have been caught. Its an (wow powerleveling) insiders game and it takes just a little bit too much time for most people to think (wow gold) through where the AIG 100 billion bailout money went to, hedge funds and players, many of whom hire from the top ranks of DOJ, Fed, Treasury, etc. ZHANG XIAO CHEN

At 2:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

cheap wow gold buy wow power leveling my wow gold

At 11:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

CHEAP wow gold BUY wow power leveling MY wow power leveling

At 5:46 PM, Blogger petora said...

why there is nofollow on bankruptcy now?

At 12:47 PM, Blogger Peehu Sharma said...

• Aurobindo Pharma seeks environment nod to expand Srikakulam Unit-9, Aurobindo Pharma Unit-9 to make bulk drugs, intermediates

At 5:43 PM, Anonymous Ripples Advisory said...

Amazing blog regarding future option tips and nifty future tips, as well. Ripples Advisory


Post a Comment

<< Home